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Post by Triple 7 on Nov 11, 2021 15:56:24 GMT -8
Welp, we've been running Ghouls incorrectly this entire time.
I don't mean Retainers, because I have some control over how they're ran (but they will likely be scaled back regarding their blood as well depending on how this conversation goes). The bottom line is that we have been running it based off the availability of the bot, which gives them a total of 5BP's to use. According to V20; on Pg.42, Ghouls & Revenants (G&R), Ghouls only get 1BP to use. For every century they exist as a Ghoul, they get one additional blood point. They have the option to overfeed and there are mechanics for that listed on Pg. 43, G&R.
What does this mean? We should have only limited the blood pool to 1BP, and left the additional four open for the possibility of overfeeding.
What I would like to know is; do we want to say fuck the book and keep it how we have been running it this whole time, or adhere to the standards as they have been written. As this is a pretty major overhaul, I want to know your opinion on the subject. Good, bad, indifferent; doesn't matter. I am fine with either system, I just need to know how to tailor the house rules so that we're all on the same page.
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Post by harry on Nov 11, 2021 23:12:59 GMT -8
It's 2 blood points for a starting character, as per the same page in the book
Thus, a starting ghoul only has a blood pool
of 2, but a ghoul in service for 400 years has a potential
blood pool of 4 points.
( Boy is their math off on that one )
Also, in p. 499 v20 core :
Step Five: Last Touches
The finishing touches are pretty much the same for
ghoul and vampire characters (ghouls start with one
blood point, and have a blood pool of 2 or more, depending
on age — see p. 500 for details).
For me, two blood points is enough for most situations before having to go back to your Domitor for a refill, and it adds an element of prioritization and planning that I also enjoy in a ghoul I play in another
server.
'Do i spend those two points to activate my potence / celerity , or keep it to heal some of that incoming lethal damage?'
P.S. I still dont think they should be able to soak aggravated without Fortitude, as per p.42, while we're looking into things.
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Post by lyanmassatar on Nov 12, 2021 3:35:55 GMT -8
I don’t see a mention of a maximum blood pool in G&R Revenant Aging section on page 42. Only earning blood pool. On the contrary Ghoul Blood Pools (G&R P140) mention the following:
Implying that ghoul and revenant has a standard blood pool of 10 considering a dice in WOD has ten face.
It's true unless you want to raise your attribute you probably don't need more than a few BP. But there is others reason to be low on blood even with a greater limit. Namely your domitor don't want you to have a full blood pool. Because he consider you like a disposable tool and don't want to give you too much power. That raise the opportunity for the ghoul to spare blood to try to fill her blood pool or to want to seek greener grass.
Ultimately I don't mind either way. It's mostly based on what you want the mood of the chronicle to be.
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Post by Scared on Nov 12, 2021 15:56:02 GMT -8
From one of the players of the (now) two ghouls, I don't think we will ever be called to spend that much blood anyway. The focus of the game is Vamps so one or 5 is really not a big deal. If we want more we should get them fangs  |
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Post by mandowraith on Nov 12, 2021 17:14:19 GMT -8
My opinion, just leave it as is. Obviously the ghoul players have yet to use that much blood and it really isn't affecting anything.
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Post by Triple 7 on Nov 16, 2021 19:05:27 GMT -8
P.S. I still dont think they should be able to soak aggravated without Fortitude, as per p.42, while we're looking into things. This is straight from multiple books. Aggravated damage, however, affects both of them as if they were mortal (Pg. 42, G&R) . Mortals may ignore sunlight, but still take damage from fire, fangs, and claws. Aggravated damage to mortals is treated as lethal wounds instead. (Pg. 285, V20). If you find a better reference, let me know. Regarding the blood pool discussion, I will likely keep it the same as I have since the beginning. It makes them more of a threat and gives the Ghoul Players a little incentive. Not much, but some! |
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Post by harry on Nov 17, 2021 7:41:30 GMT -8
P.S. I still dont think they should be able to soak aggravated without Fortitude, as per p.42, while we're looking into things. This is straight from multiple books. Aggravated damage, however, affects both of them as if they were mortal (Pg. 42, G&R) . Mortals may ignore sunlight, but still take damage from fire, fangs, and claws. Aggravated damage to mortals is treated as lethal wounds instead. (Pg. 285, V20). If you find a better reference, let me know.
'As if they were mortal' . Mortals instead of ghouls. What is the difference between mortals and ghouls in terms of soaking damage? Ghouls can soak the lethal, but mortals can't. So when it comes to aggravated , ghouls are treated like mortals. As in, they can't soak it. There really is no other way to read this, otherwise it would just say ' Ghouls also treat aggravated as lethal and can soak it normally', and there wouldn't be a 'however' in the sentence. The only thing capable of soaking aggravated in the world of darkness normally like that are werewolves and other fancy splats and abilities. |
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Post by Triple 7 on Nov 17, 2021 8:57:38 GMT -8
Its not that Ghouls can soak Aggravated damage, its that they don't recognize Aggravated damage. Aggravated is a mystical effect for Supernaturals. Mortals treat Aggravated damage as Lethal. Ghouls treat Aggravated damage as if they were Mortal. Therefore, Aggravated damage for a Ghoul becomes Lethal Damage for the Ghoul.
Its written in those two references I gave you.
Again, if you have a better reference for V20 I am interested, but that's pretty clearly written for me.
Furthermore, your argument is saying that Mortals cannot soak Aggravated damage and they just take it, right? That's the premise of your concern? You hit a mortal with Protean 2 and they just take "aggravated damage". Okay, by that logic they now have at least one * in their health boxes.
How do they heal it? Where is the mechanic for healing it? Mortals heal with time or another mechanic that aids then, they can't spend blood for it. So the book lists heal times for mortals. Guess what is missing? The mechanic to heal aggravated damage because they treat aggravated damage as lethal (there's a mechanic for that). By your logic, are mortals just fucked and never able to heal aggravated damage unless they have an outside source aiding them (Mage healing them mystically, getting Ghouled and spending blood, etc)? If there isn't a mechanical heal time for aggravated damage on mortals, they don't deal with it.
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Post by harry on Nov 17, 2021 21:25:18 GMT -8
Mortals heal aggravated the same as lethal. They are incapable of soaking neither lethal nor aggravated, so there is no point in making a distinction. There is not some supernatural effect that makes them more resistant to aggravated, they are just equally wrecked by both. That wasn't my argument at all, as I am not concerned with mortals, but with ghouls.
Ghouls can soak lethal. But when it comes to aggravated, they deal with it like a mortal does lethal, which is that they can't soak it, unless they have Fortitude. For ghouls and revenants, a distinction between lethal and aggravated does have merit, because they can soak the one, but not the other. And going by the exact same line in the book, they would heal aggravated via the mortal's healing rules for lethal, with time/hospitalization etcetera.
You wanted another reference,and i just thought of one : p. 214 v20 core, in the cauldron of blood mechanics :
A single success kills any mortal, though some ghouls with access to Fortitude are said to have survived after soaking all of the aggravated damage.
Why would it say ' only ghouls with Fortitude' if it was true that ghouls soak agg normally?
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Post by Triple 7 on Nov 17, 2021 22:25:40 GMT -8
That's a great reference, but its a little too obscure for me. I would chalk that off to "Ghouls with Fortitude are able to resist injury better and have been known to survive."
Regardless, its at the point in the debate I'm going to just say "this is how I interpret this aspect of the mechanics and will remain in play" and move on, lol.
Additionally, for the original topic of discussion, I will keep the PC Ghouls at 5BP's a piece and Retainers at 3BP's per night.
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